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	<title>Comments on: The Dilemma of a Certain Pilgrim: To Stay or Leave the Church</title>
	<link>http://glenscorgie.com/2008/05/07/the-dilemma-of-a-certain-pilgrim-to-stay-or-leave-the-church/</link>
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	<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 22:36:39 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Joel Fieri</title>
		<link>http://glenscorgie.com/2008/05/07/the-dilemma-of-a-certain-pilgrim-to-stay-or-leave-the-church/#comment-399</link>
		<dc:creator>Joel Fieri</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 00:34:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://glenscorgie.com/2008/05/07/the-dilemma-of-a-certain-pilgrim-to-stay-or-leave-the-church/#comment-399</guid>
		<description>Once again I feel the need to voice an opposing opinion. Questions - If the female wounds are so deep and so many bombs have been dropped (or whatever the metaphor) then why is church life dominated by women? Are Dr. Scorgie and the above postors unaware of the disappearance of men in today’s churches? The modern, feminized church is driving men away in droves. Look around at your next worship service. The statistics are grim; 60% or more of worship attendees are women, 25% of married women worship without their husbands, mid-week activity participation is 70-80% female, most church employees are female (with the exception of pastoral staffs), not to mention the prevailing worship atmosphere in evangelical churches emphasizing emotionally based praise songs and performances designed to appeal to women. And even though males dominate the clergy, any pastor knows that it is women who drive ministry, so their ministry strategies are designed accordingly.

An entire ministry has emerged around the books (and concepts of) “Wild at Heart” and "Why Men Hate Going to Church". Basically, Jesus sought out, discipled and commissioned men, and without men, churches will die or fade to irrelevance. Both men and women are blessed when men feel engaged in their churches. 
Women reading this would be well advised to take Esther Schaeffer’s post above. Specifically “It matters little to me that I might not be given a title or a privilege. I just want to serve Him who has done so much for me.”</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Once again I feel the need to voice an opposing opinion. Questions - If the female wounds are so deep and so many bombs have been dropped (or whatever the metaphor) then why is church life dominated by women? Are Dr. Scorgie and the above postors unaware of the disappearance of men in today’s churches? The modern, feminized church is driving men away in droves. Look around at your next worship service. The statistics are grim; 60% or more of worship attendees are women, 25% of married women worship without their husbands, mid-week activity participation is 70-80% female, most church employees are female (with the exception of pastoral staffs), not to mention the prevailing worship atmosphere in evangelical churches emphasizing emotionally based praise songs and performances designed to appeal to women. And even though males dominate the clergy, any pastor knows that it is women who drive ministry, so their ministry strategies are designed accordingly.</p>
<p>An entire ministry has emerged around the books (and concepts of) “Wild at Heart” and &#8220;Why Men Hate Going to Church&#8221;. Basically, Jesus sought out, discipled and commissioned men, and without men, churches will die or fade to irrelevance. Both men and women are blessed when men feel engaged in their churches.<br />
Women reading this would be well advised to take Esther Schaeffer’s post above. Specifically “It matters little to me that I might not be given a title or a privilege. I just want to serve Him who has done so much for me.”</p>
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		<title>By: Kim Olstad</title>
		<link>http://glenscorgie.com/2008/05/07/the-dilemma-of-a-certain-pilgrim-to-stay-or-leave-the-church/#comment-223</link>
		<dc:creator>Kim Olstad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 21:41:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://glenscorgie.com/2008/05/07/the-dilemma-of-a-certain-pilgrim-to-stay-or-leave-the-church/#comment-223</guid>
		<description>Speaking as someone who was raised in a churchbody that does not allow women in pastoral leadership, I can relate to "June's" frustration.  (I am no longer in any way affiliated with that group.)

While it would not be stated in that particular denomination that women are "worth" less because this role is not available to them, it is certainly a perception that ever so subtly runs deep and becomes pervasive.  In fact it becomes much more than a simple exclusion from particular functions:  the message becomes for young men and young women that women have less intrinsic value all around. 

Certainly there are opportunities to serve in that atmosphere if one is willing to accept the role of "less than".  

It has taken me years to understand the damage caused by this demeaning stance within my own soul.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Speaking as someone who was raised in a churchbody that does not allow women in pastoral leadership, I can relate to &#8220;June&#8217;s&#8221; frustration.  (I am no longer in any way affiliated with that group.)</p>
<p>While it would not be stated in that particular denomination that women are &#8220;worth&#8221; less because this role is not available to them, it is certainly a perception that ever so subtly runs deep and becomes pervasive.  In fact it becomes much more than a simple exclusion from particular functions:  the message becomes for young men and young women that women have less intrinsic value all around. </p>
<p>Certainly there are opportunities to serve in that atmosphere if one is willing to accept the role of &#8220;less than&#8221;.  </p>
<p>It has taken me years to understand the damage caused by this demeaning stance within my own soul.</p>
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		<title>By: Dawn Lindholm</title>
		<link>http://glenscorgie.com/2008/05/07/the-dilemma-of-a-certain-pilgrim-to-stay-or-leave-the-church/#comment-121</link>
		<dc:creator>Dawn Lindholm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 03:44:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://glenscorgie.com/2008/05/07/the-dilemma-of-a-certain-pilgrim-to-stay-or-leave-the-church/#comment-121</guid>
		<description>"June" is not an individual of one but of a massive group of followers.  I am researching women who have graduated from seminaries and how the church has/has not embraced them.  It is a heart-breaking project.

Sue Monk Kidd has written about her spiritual journey away from Christianity.  Many in the evangelical camp shout warnings to stay away from her writings.  But she is asking the questions a lot of women are asking.  And if the church continues to ignore the questions there will continue to be an exodus of women leaving church.  These are not only Gen X or Millennialists, these are boomers!

The soul wounds are deep.  

I struggle to stay within the church.  I struggle to encourage others to stay.  I am beginning to believe that the insitutional church that is in buildings on Sundays are not hospitible "sanctuaries" for the soul of many women.  Could it be that it is a healthy faith that calls us outside anything that looks and feels like a corporation with secular power struggles?

As my husband says repetatively, "It is all about power.  Those that have it want to keep it."  Jesus came with a type of power that reached out to the marginalized, the broken and the sick.  Jesus touched the soul wounds of women in the 1sr century... and he continues to do so today.  Despite what organized church does to them.

I live on the margins of "church", but isn't that where Jesus had and continues to have the greatest impact?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;June&#8221; is not an individual of one but of a massive group of followers.  I am researching women who have graduated from seminaries and how the church has/has not embraced them.  It is a heart-breaking project.</p>
<p>Sue Monk Kidd has written about her spiritual journey away from Christianity.  Many in the evangelical camp shout warnings to stay away from her writings.  But she is asking the questions a lot of women are asking.  And if the church continues to ignore the questions there will continue to be an exodus of women leaving church.  These are not only Gen X or Millennialists, these are boomers!</p>
<p>The soul wounds are deep.  </p>
<p>I struggle to stay within the church.  I struggle to encourage others to stay.  I am beginning to believe that the insitutional church that is in buildings on Sundays are not hospitible &#8220;sanctuaries&#8221; for the soul of many women.  Could it be that it is a healthy faith that calls us outside anything that looks and feels like a corporation with secular power struggles?</p>
<p>As my husband says repetatively, &#8220;It is all about power.  Those that have it want to keep it.&#8221;  Jesus came with a type of power that reached out to the marginalized, the broken and the sick.  Jesus touched the soul wounds of women in the 1sr century&#8230; and he continues to do so today.  Despite what organized church does to them.</p>
<p>I live on the margins of &#8220;church&#8221;, but isn&#8217;t that where Jesus had and continues to have the greatest impact?</p>
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		<title>By: Taeler Morgan</title>
		<link>http://glenscorgie.com/2008/05/07/the-dilemma-of-a-certain-pilgrim-to-stay-or-leave-the-church/#comment-60</link>
		<dc:creator>Taeler Morgan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 May 2008 16:13:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://glenscorgie.com/2008/05/07/the-dilemma-of-a-certain-pilgrim-to-stay-or-leave-the-church/#comment-60</guid>
		<description>You are spot on in your assessment of damage being done with disregard for the pain caused and that is why it is important to tell the stories of women like June. Not as an act of dredging up bitterness, but in recognition of the fact that women are still limited in their ability to serve God’s church to “the best of their ability” (that being the full use of whatever gifts God has given you). Instead they are asked to serve the church only to the extent that some other person thinks they ought to have been gifted in the first place.

The harsh reality is that, even in denominations where women are fully ordained (like the PCUSA), I have still walked into women’s bible studies only to be told that my husband is the CEO of our partnership and my “job” is to help implement his decisions. This contradiction is what frightens me most. The idea that our young women are being taught by the secular world that they can use any and all of their gifts to be an Officer, President, even CEO, but they are asked to conceal or disregard their God-given gifts once they enter the “sanctuary” of the church. Do we really want women to have to fake-it just to go to church? That kind of call for inauthenticity is precisely why Gen X and the Millennials are making their own Exodus –from the church. 

Healing happens after an illness is diagnosed. Will we allow ourselves to bleed into anemia just to avoid admitting we are wounded?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are spot on in your assessment of damage being done with disregard for the pain caused and that is why it is important to tell the stories of women like June. Not as an act of dredging up bitterness, but in recognition of the fact that women are still limited in their ability to serve God’s church to “the best of their ability” (that being the full use of whatever gifts God has given you). Instead they are asked to serve the church only to the extent that some other person thinks they ought to have been gifted in the first place.</p>
<p>The harsh reality is that, even in denominations where women are fully ordained (like the PCUSA), I have still walked into women’s bible studies only to be told that my husband is the CEO of our partnership and my “job” is to help implement his decisions. This contradiction is what frightens me most. The idea that our young women are being taught by the secular world that they can use any and all of their gifts to be an Officer, President, even CEO, but they are asked to conceal or disregard their God-given gifts once they enter the “sanctuary” of the church. Do we really want women to have to fake-it just to go to church? That kind of call for inauthenticity is precisely why Gen X and the Millennials are making their own Exodus –from the church. </p>
<p>Healing happens after an illness is diagnosed. Will we allow ourselves to bleed into anemia just to avoid admitting we are wounded?</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Wildey</title>
		<link>http://glenscorgie.com/2008/05/07/the-dilemma-of-a-certain-pilgrim-to-stay-or-leave-the-church/#comment-52</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Wildey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 22:47:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://glenscorgie.com/2008/05/07/the-dilemma-of-a-certain-pilgrim-to-stay-or-leave-the-church/#comment-52</guid>
		<description>Thanks for writing this.

I also wanted to say that I think the metaphor of "bomb dropping" at high altitude is an excellent word picture that I will probably borrow :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for writing this.</p>
<p>I also wanted to say that I think the metaphor of &#8220;bomb dropping&#8221; at high altitude is an excellent word picture that I will probably borrow <img src='http://glenscorgie.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Esther Schaeffer</title>
		<link>http://glenscorgie.com/2008/05/07/the-dilemma-of-a-certain-pilgrim-to-stay-or-leave-the-church/#comment-49</link>
		<dc:creator>Esther Schaeffer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 15:15:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://glenscorgie.com/2008/05/07/the-dilemma-of-a-certain-pilgrim-to-stay-or-leave-the-church/#comment-49</guid>
		<description>I read with interest your article and the comments. I wonder why no women have responded?  I do not think that egality will ever be reached until heaven. As much as we hear Christ's words about the greatest ones being the ones who serve, it is seldom played out in our churches.  But I love Christ's church.  With all of its problems and sin and misunderstandings.  And I will serve His church to the best of my ability.  I have many opportunities to serve and no limit to what I am allowed to do, except as I limit myself in the role of service to which the Lord has called me.  I often am baffled at women who say that they feel stiffled in the church and limited in what they can do.  A person willing to serve will never lack opportunity.  It matters little to me whether I am before a congregation of a thousand or a primary Sunday School class of five.  It matters little to me that I might not be given a title or a privilege.  I just want to serve Him who has done so much for me.  I also love the Word of God.  I don't always understand it, but what a comfort it is to me, a guide, a shield, a refuge.  I have seen the power of God's Word at work as I have taught it in many different contexts.  It repeatedly calls me to a life of humble service within the body of Christ.  It is a call for all of us whether male or female.  May the Lord help each of us serve faithfully together, with unity of heart and purpose, encouraging each other with the gifts that Christ has given us, to bring many into the Kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read with interest your article and the comments. I wonder why no women have responded?  I do not think that egality will ever be reached until heaven. As much as we hear Christ&#8217;s words about the greatest ones being the ones who serve, it is seldom played out in our churches.  But I love Christ&#8217;s church.  With all of its problems and sin and misunderstandings.  And I will serve His church to the best of my ability.  I have many opportunities to serve and no limit to what I am allowed to do, except as I limit myself in the role of service to which the Lord has called me.  I often am baffled at women who say that they feel stiffled in the church and limited in what they can do.  A person willing to serve will never lack opportunity.  It matters little to me whether I am before a congregation of a thousand or a primary Sunday School class of five.  It matters little to me that I might not be given a title or a privilege.  I just want to serve Him who has done so much for me.  I also love the Word of God.  I don&#8217;t always understand it, but what a comfort it is to me, a guide, a shield, a refuge.  I have seen the power of God&#8217;s Word at work as I have taught it in many different contexts.  It repeatedly calls me to a life of humble service within the body of Christ.  It is a call for all of us whether male or female.  May the Lord help each of us serve faithfully together, with unity of heart and purpose, encouraging each other with the gifts that Christ has given us, to bring many into the Kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.</p>
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		<title>By: brian tallamn</title>
		<link>http://glenscorgie.com/2008/05/07/the-dilemma-of-a-certain-pilgrim-to-stay-or-leave-the-church/#comment-44</link>
		<dc:creator>brian tallamn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 15:41:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://glenscorgie.com/2008/05/07/the-dilemma-of-a-certain-pilgrim-to-stay-or-leave-the-church/#comment-44</guid>
		<description>I have had similar experiences with folks when they come across the teaching of Scripture that "God...by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain[s] whatsoever comes to pass..."  They cry and a cut to the heart as they lay that teaching over the traumatic personal experiences which have marked their life.  They ask questions like: Does that include my rape?  Does that include my miscarriage?  Does that include the death of my wife/husband?  Does that include my comma and subsequent loss of voice? [All real questions, I assure you].  But the comforting answer of Scripture is not that God was sleeping, but that he never relinquished control for a second.  In other words, comfort comes by faith and a renewed mind.  Job's friends were at their best when they listened, but God was at his best when he spoke.  He has spoken on this issue and we need not be embarrassed at what he has said.  "Blind unbelief is sure to err, and scan his work in vain; God is his own interpreter and he will make it plain."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have had similar experiences with folks when they come across the teaching of Scripture that &#8220;God&#8230;by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain[s] whatsoever comes to pass&#8230;&#8221;  They cry and a cut to the heart as they lay that teaching over the traumatic personal experiences which have marked their life.  They ask questions like: Does that include my rape?  Does that include my miscarriage?  Does that include the death of my wife/husband?  Does that include my comma and subsequent loss of voice? [All real questions, I assure you].  But the comforting answer of Scripture is not that God was sleeping, but that he never relinquished control for a second.  In other words, comfort comes by faith and a renewed mind.  Job&#8217;s friends were at their best when they listened, but God was at his best when he spoke.  He has spoken on this issue and we need not be embarrassed at what he has said.  &#8220;Blind unbelief is sure to err, and scan his work in vain; God is his own interpreter and he will make it plain.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Ken Badley</title>
		<link>http://glenscorgie.com/2008/05/07/the-dilemma-of-a-certain-pilgrim-to-stay-or-leave-the-church/#comment-43</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken Badley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 13:46:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://glenscorgie.com/2008/05/07/the-dilemma-of-a-certain-pilgrim-to-stay-or-leave-the-church/#comment-43</guid>
		<description>You give a quite powerful image of bombs dropped from on high by individuals who don't see the damage on the ground.

My own movement toward egalitarian thinking arose partly because God had so clearly given my own wife such gifts in understanding and teaching Scripture and in preaching.  She does those things far better than do I, with more love for God, and with far stronger desire to search Scripture to hear God's voice.  To what other source could I attribute these gifts and desires than to God?  

Long after I encountered this living example though, I started to notice that many of those most adamant about enforcing those passages of Scripture which at first blush seem to limit women's place seemed to ignore other whole swaths of Scripture without even blinking.  I don't refer here to the cavalier dismissal of the shellfish prohibition, but of major Biblical motifs such as caring for the poor or creation stewardship.  How we do stand above the Word, declaring that this part (wearing tassels on our garments!!) is culturally conditioned while this other part -- about women -- is acontextual and applies at all times and in all places.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You give a quite powerful image of bombs dropped from on high by individuals who don&#8217;t see the damage on the ground.</p>
<p>My own movement toward egalitarian thinking arose partly because God had so clearly given my own wife such gifts in understanding and teaching Scripture and in preaching.  She does those things far better than do I, with more love for God, and with far stronger desire to search Scripture to hear God&#8217;s voice.  To what other source could I attribute these gifts and desires than to God?  </p>
<p>Long after I encountered this living example though, I started to notice that many of those most adamant about enforcing those passages of Scripture which at first blush seem to limit women&#8217;s place seemed to ignore other whole swaths of Scripture without even blinking.  I don&#8217;t refer here to the cavalier dismissal of the shellfish prohibition, but of major Biblical motifs such as caring for the poor or creation stewardship.  How we do stand above the Word, declaring that this part (wearing tassels on our garments!!) is culturally conditioned while this other part &#8212; about women &#8212; is acontextual and applies at all times and in all places.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Pierard</title>
		<link>http://glenscorgie.com/2008/05/07/the-dilemma-of-a-certain-pilgrim-to-stay-or-leave-the-church/#comment-42</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Pierard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 05:16:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://glenscorgie.com/2008/05/07/the-dilemma-of-a-certain-pilgrim-to-stay-or-leave-the-church/#comment-42</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Glen, for speaking out.  My problem is with the concept of authority.  When exercised by anyone, it almost certainly ends up being abusive.  I wish we Christians could start being more like Christ, who taught us so much about love and  humility.  The danger of authoritarianism is amply demonstrated by the treatment our sister "June" received at the hands of "complementarians".   They are rapidly slipping into heresy by teaching subordination of Christ to the Father as the model of a wife's submission to her husband.  That is neo-Arianism if i have ever seen it.  "June," rest assured that there are many of us out there who feel that what has been done to you in the name of Christ is reprehensible.  You are my equal in all ways, and God may call you even to preach his word, and I would recognize that right to exercise your gifts in this mannner.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Glen, for speaking out.  My problem is with the concept of authority.  When exercised by anyone, it almost certainly ends up being abusive.  I wish we Christians could start being more like Christ, who taught us so much about love and  humility.  The danger of authoritarianism is amply demonstrated by the treatment our sister &#8220;June&#8221; received at the hands of &#8220;complementarians&#8221;.   They are rapidly slipping into heresy by teaching subordination of Christ to the Father as the model of a wife&#8217;s submission to her husband.  That is neo-Arianism if i have ever seen it.  &#8220;June,&#8221; rest assured that there are many of us out there who feel that what has been done to you in the name of Christ is reprehensible.  You are my equal in all ways, and God may call you even to preach his word, and I would recognize that right to exercise your gifts in this mannner.</p>
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		<title>By: Bert McBride</title>
		<link>http://glenscorgie.com/2008/05/07/the-dilemma-of-a-certain-pilgrim-to-stay-or-leave-the-church/#comment-40</link>
		<dc:creator>Bert McBride</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 03:18:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://glenscorgie.com/2008/05/07/the-dilemma-of-a-certain-pilgrim-to-stay-or-leave-the-church/#comment-40</guid>
		<description>Glen, What is a country house painter doing writing theology? You make good points nevertheless. No matter which side we are on we have to take our stand with love, and if possible, empathy. It is true that authoritarian rigid fathers and elders can distort our concept of God, but that does not give us liberty to say therefore a scriptural principle can be set aside. 
I am struck by these phrases in your story: "Strong-willed and highly intelligent", "It's so old", "too smart for the Christian "hullabaloo". Who chose the names for God? The Spirit "itself"?

I chaired the CMA Canada Board of Directors as we wrestled through this. I finally had to accept that there are intelligent, strong-willed, committed and good people on both sides. We have to respect each other and not call one side radical nor the other dinosaurs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Glen, What is a country house painter doing writing theology? You make good points nevertheless. No matter which side we are on we have to take our stand with love, and if possible, empathy. It is true that authoritarian rigid fathers and elders can distort our concept of God, but that does not give us liberty to say therefore a scriptural principle can be set aside.<br />
I am struck by these phrases in your story: &#8220;Strong-willed and highly intelligent&#8221;, &#8220;It&#8217;s so old&#8221;, &#8220;too smart for the Christian &#8220;hullabaloo&#8221;. Who chose the names for God? The Spirit &#8220;itself&#8221;?</p>
<p>I chaired the CMA Canada Board of Directors as we wrestled through this. I finally had to accept that there are intelligent, strong-willed, committed and good people on both sides. We have to respect each other and not call one side radical nor the other dinosaurs.</p>
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